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Δημοσ.
Να ρωτήσω τους ειδήμονες του χώρου κατά πόσο ήταν απαραίτητη η μετάβαση σε html5 για να αντικατασταθεί το flash στο συγκεκριμένο site και κατά πόσο το ίδιο αποτέλεσμα θα μπορούσε να είχε επιτευχθεί με το κοινό (sic) html;

 

Βασικά το λέει και στο cartoon. :P

 

http://www.scribd.com/documents/30964170/Scribd-in-HTML5 (Page 13.)

 

Χρειάζονται HTML5 (canvas) για complex 2D images. Αναφέρει canvas/VML πιθανότατα γιατί σκοπεύει να χρησιμοποιήσει excanvas. Το excanvas υλοποιεί standard canvas πάνω από την μη-standard VML που υπάρχει στον IE.

 

:D

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Συχνή συμμετοχή στο θέμα

Συχνή συμμετοχή στο θέμα

Δημοσ. (επεξεργασμένο)
Βασικά το λέει και στο cartoon. :P

 

http://www.scribd.com/documents/30964170/Scribd-in-HTML5 (Page 13.)

 

Χρειάζονται HTML5 (canvas) για complex 2D images. Αναφέρει canvas/VML πιθανότατα γιατί σκοπεύει να χρησιμοποιήσει excanvas. Το excanvas υλοποιεί standard canvas πάνω από την μη-standard VML που υπάρχει στον IE.

 

:D

 

Να δεις που έχω χρόνια να διαβάσω comic και για αυτό δεν βρίσκω πουθενά κάποια αναφορά περί canvas/VML...

 

Το ερώτημά μου όμως παραμένει. Χωρίς html5 δεν θα μπορούσε να επιτευχθεί αντίστοιχο αποτέλεσμα χωρίς χρήση flash;

 

Τώρα που ξαναδιαβάζω το "cartoon" αυτός ο συμπρωταγωνιστής κάποιον μου θυμίζει, αλλά μπα δεν θα έφταναν να τον κάνουν και cartoon... :lol:

 

Y.Γ. Για να μην παρεξηγηθώ, καλό και άγιο το html5 και όλες οι δυνατότητές του, το θέμα όμως είναι κατά πόσο το (-τη- αφού είναι γλώσσα, αλλά τέλος πάντων) χρησιμοποιούν ως αφορμή και η αιτία είναι άλλη.

 

Y.Γ.2 Έχω λανθασμένα την εντύπωση ότι η html5 υλοποίηση του Scribd είναι βαριά σε linux ή με τον ίδιο τρόπο συμπεριφέρεται σε όλα τα λειτουργικά; Γιατί τα υπόλοιπα "iPad- ready" site δεν είναι τόσο βαριά.

Επεξ/σία από digekas
Δημοσ.
Να δεις που έχω χρόνια να διαβάσω comic και για αυτό δεν βρίσκω πουθενά κάποια αναφορά περί canvas/VML...

 

Το ερώτημά μου όμως παραμένει. Χωρίς html5 δεν θα μπορούσε να επιτευχθεί αντίστοιχο αποτέλεσμα χωρίς χρήση flash;

 

Τώρα που ξαναδιαβάζω το "cartoon" αυτός ο συμπρωταγωνιστής κάποιον μου θυμίζει, αλλά μπα δεν θα έφταναν να τον κάνουν και cartoon... :lol:

 

Y.Γ. Για να μην παρεξηγηθώ, καλό και άγιο το html5 και όλες οι δυνατότητές του, το θέμα όμως είναι κατά πόσο το (-τη- αφού είναι γλώσσα, αλλά τέλος πάντων) χρησιμοποιούν ως αφορμή και η αιτία είναι άλλη.

 

Well, no. Not really. =]

 

Τα έγγραφα του scribd χρειάζονται vector graphics για να δείξουν πολλά από τα έγγραφά τους (graphs/animations/ακόμα και UI). Αυτά τα πετυχαίνεις με SVG/canvas.

 

Δεν καταλαβαίνω γιατί να έχουν απώτερο σκοπό. Είναι open standards που υποστηρίζονται από όλους τους σύγχρονους browsers και μπορούν να υποστηριχθούν και στον IE με JS Shims. Για ποιο λόγο πιστεύεις ότι το κάνανε?

 

Υ.Γ. 2 Κι εγώ από linux το βλέπω, μια χαρά μου φαίνεται. Μην ξεχνάς είναι σε beta. Για την απόδοση του HTML5 που αναφέρθηκε, no worries. Τα αποτελέσματα που δημοσιεύονται αυτή τη στγμή στο internet για flash vs HTML5 συγκρίνουν ουσιαστικά middleware που έχει πρόσβαση σε hardware επιτάχυνση με browsers που κατά κανόνα δεν έχουν. Για να δείτε πραγματικές διαφορές, αναμείνατε την FF 3.7, ή δείτε τον Opera, o chrome ακολουθεί (έχει κάποια επιτάχυνση με το skia). Στο συγκεκριμένο link που δώθηκε, to HTML 5 είναι περίπου στα ίδια επίπεδα με το accelerated flash (safari καλύτερα αποτελέσματα σε OSX και σε windows ο chrome περνάει το video από το sandbox που δικαιολογεί το +10%)

Δημοσ. (επεξεργασμένο)

Αν και πρέπει να το έχω γράψει κάπου παραπάνω, πιστεύω ότι η σύμπτωση της αντιπαράθεση μεταξύ Apple/Adobe σχετικά με το flash και η ξαφνική στροφή αρκετών site σε html5, σαν σύμπτωση, είναι λίγο τραβηγμένη.

 

Εξάλλου θα είδες και το i-pad ready link του προηγούμενου ποστ. :-)

 

Βεβαίως και πολλά site είχαν κάνει στροφή προς το html5 πολύ πριν την κόντρα Apple/Adobe απλά τώρα που τα προϊόντα της Apple δεν έχουν flash player η προβολή αυτών των site "δικαιολογεί" την απόφαση της.

 

Για το hardware decoding στο flash σε windows γνωρίζω και για αυτό έγραψα σε προηγούμενο ποστ ότι η Adobe είναι αδικαιολόγητη σε ό,τι αφορά την αντίστοιχη λειτουργία σε linux γιατί το vdpau υπάρχει πάνω από χρόνο, προσωπικά το χρησιμοποιώ από του Αγίου Δημητρίου (μεγάλη η χάρη του :-)) ακόμα και σε divx/xvid video.

 

(Και μιας και βρήκαμε τον παπά, ευκαιρία να θάψουμε καμπόσους... :lol:)

 

 

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<div class="controls first_time">

<div id="intro_text">Reading should be social! Post a message on your social networks to let others know what you're reading. Select the sites below and start sharing.</div>

 

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<div class="content"> <div class="autogen_class_views_documents_fourgen_share_form" id="autogen_id_108002849">

 

<div class="share_form"><a class="close_button" href="#"></a> <div id="toolbar_exposed_share_panel">

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<div class="social_icon_section download"><a class="ctl_button download" title="Download"></a></div>

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Introducing Scribd in HTML5

</div>

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ψάχνω στο source της σελίδας να δω κάπου χρήση του canvas που λες και δεν βλέπω κάτι, για βοήθα λίγο. :-)

Επεξ/σία από digekas
Δημοσ. (επεξεργασμένο)

Well, το iPad αναμφίβολα είναι driving force για το HTML5 αυτή τη στιγμή. Αλλά το μέλλον είναι το HTML5 έτσι κι αλλιώς. Θα δούμε WebGL σε λιγάκι και όσο πάει ο browser αποκτά όλα και περισσότερη πρόσβαση στις δυνατότητες του υπολογιστή που έχουν και οι native εφαρμογές ή middleware σαν το flash.

 

Η adobe είναι αδικαιολόγητη (αν σκεφτείς ότι το gnash ήδη χρησιμοποιεί το VA API), αλλά για να λέμε και του στραβού το δίκιο, μια εταιρεία είναι. Δεν πιστεύω ότι καμία εταιρεία μόνη της έχει τα resources να συντηρεί ένα plugin σαν το flash (με την μεγάλη και δίκαιη υποστήριξη που έχει cross-platform, cross-device). Καλύτερα είναι να αφήσουμε αυτή τη δουλειά στους browsers. =)

 

Edit: Για το canvas, δεν είναι απαραίτητο ότι θα το χρησιμοποιήσουν στo συγκεκριμένο απλό έγγραφο. Αλλά για να αναπαριστάνεις έγγραφα σαν τα PDF, θα χρειαστείς vector graphics σίγουρα. =)

Επεξ/σία από c4lex
Δημοσ.
Well, το iPad αναμφίβολα είναι driving force για το HTML5 αυτή τη στιγμή. Αλλά το μέλλον είναι το HTML5 έτσι κι αλλιώς. Θα δούμε WebGL σε λιγάκι και όσο πάει ο browser αποκτά όλα και περισσότερη πρόσβαση στις δυνατότητες του υπολογιστή που έχουν και οι native εφαρμογές ή middleware σαν το flash.

 

Η adobe είναι αδικαιολόγητη (αν σκεφτείς ότι το gnash ήδη χρησιμοποιεί το VA API), αλλά για να λέμε και του στραβού το δίκιο, μια εταιρεία είναι. Δεν πιστεύω ότι καμία εταιρεία μόνη της έχει τα resources να συντηρεί ένα plugin σαν το flash (με την μεγάλη και δίκαιη υποστήριξη που έχει cross-platform, cross-device). Καλύτερα είναι να αφήσουμε αυτή τη δουλειά στους browsers. =)

 

Αυτό είναι το θέμα, κατά πόσο το iPad είναι driving force για το html5, αν το html5 χρειάζεται χρόνο για να ωριμάσει και αν οι developers είναι έτοιμοι και έχουν εργαλεία αντίστοιχα με αυτά της adobe για να προλάβουν το τρένο που τραβάει η apple.

 

Το ότι είναι το μέλλον αυτό είναι αδιαμφισβήτητο απλά η apple αυτή την στιγμή έχει καυτή πατάτα στα χέρια της και τρέχει και να το δεις που σε λίγο καιρό θα υποστηρίζει ότι εκείνη ήταν που πέταξε το βραχνά του flash και κερδισμένος τώρα είναι ο κόσμος όλος. :lol:

 

Το ότι η Adobe και η κάθε Adobe δεν μπορεί να τα βάλει με ανοικτά πρότυπα και λογισμικό είναι το μόνο σίγουρο. Βεβαίως και όπως εκείνη λέει πολύ σύντομα θα τα ενσωματώσει στο flash, αλλά θα είχε μεγάλη πλάκα να βλέπαμε το html5 να βγαίνει με gnu gpl.

 

Πέρα πάντως από την πλάκα, το θεωρώ πολύ πιθανό να ανοιχτεί ο flash και πάνω του να στραφεί η κοινότητα του open source, όχι για κανένα άλλο λόγο, αλλά για να αναθεωρήσει και ο Steve και να αρχίσει με την σειρά του να σκέφτεται ότι ήρθε και η σειρά του να ανοίξει τα δικά του χαρτιά. :-)

Δημοσ.
"Τώρα κάθε έγγραφο μπορεί να γίνει ιστοσελίδα".

 

Όταν ολοκληρωθεί η μετάβαση, η Scribd θα έχει μετατρέψει δισεκατομμύρια σελίδες εγγράφων σε ιστοσελίδες.

 

αυτό είναι όλο το ζουμί πίσω από την αλλαγή imho... ξαφνικά από εκεί που

είχες flash περιεχόμενο, έχεις ιστοσελίδα με κείμενο = fully spidered = καλύτερη

τοποθέτηση στις SERPs ανά keyword = περισσότερο organic traffic + πιο σχετικές

διαφημίσεις στο Adsense = mooore $$$ :-D

 

π.χ. το ίδιο κείμενο σε

flash: http://www.scribd.com/doc/31170430/WIDE-AWAKE-by-Patricia-Morrisroe-EXCERPT

και

html5: http://www.scribd.com/documents/31170430/WIDE-AWAKE-by-Patricia-Morrisroe-EXCERPT

 

δισεκατομμύρια σελίδες κειμένου, αντί για εκατομμύρια flash αρχεία = $$$

όλα τα άλλα περί μετάβαση στην νέα εποχή, ανοιχτά πρότυπα, το flash ψόφησε κλπ,

είναι για συζητήσεις στα forums :P

Δημοσ.
"Τώρα κάθε έγγραφο μπορεί να γίνει ιστοσελίδα".

 

Όταν ολοκληρωθεί η μετάβαση, η Scribd θα έχει μετατρέψει δισεκατομμύρια σελίδες εγγράφων σε ιστοσελίδες.

 

αυτό είναι όλο το ζουμί πίσω από την αλλαγή imho... ξαφνικά από εκεί που

είχες flash περιεχόμενο, έχεις ιστοσελίδα με κείμενο = fully spidered = καλύτερη

τοποθέτηση στις SERPs ανά keyword = περισσότερο organic traffic + πιο σχετικές

διαφημίσεις στο Adsense = mooore $$$ :-D

 

π.χ. το ίδιο κείμενο σε

flash: http://www.scribd.com/doc/31170430/WIDE-AWAKE-by-Patricia-Morrisroe-EXCERPT

και

html5: http://www.scribd.com/documents/31170430/WIDE-AWAKE-by-Patricia-Morrisroe-EXCERPT

 

δισεκατομμύρια σελίδες κειμένου, αντί για εκατομμύρια flash αρχεία = $$$

όλα τα άλλα περί μετάβαση στην νέα εποχή, ανοιχτά πρότυπα, το flash ψόφησε κλπ,

είναι για συζητήσεις στα forums :P

Δημοσ.

Εδώ και κανα 2 χρόνια η Google μπορεί να κάνει crawl flash content. Ενώ οι υπόλοιπες μηχανές το προσπαθούν. Οπότε από την οπτική του ανταγωνισμού, το HTML5 επίσης χαμηλώνει το barrier to entry για νέες μηχανές αναζήτησης. Σίγουρα είναι πιο εύκολο για το indexing το HTML5 από το Flash, αλλά επίσης είναι και πιο mashable. Μπορεί ο καθένας να επέμβει στην σελίδα όπως θέλει με το greasemonkey πχ. Να κάνει integrate περιεχόμενο από άλλο site στο δικό του κοκ.

 

Ένα ανοιχτό internet συμφέρει όλους μας. =)

Δημοσ.

Εδώ και κανα 2 χρόνια η Google μπορεί να κάνει crawl flash content. Ενώ οι υπόλοιπες μηχανές το προσπαθούν. Οπότε από την οπτική του ανταγωνισμού, το HTML5 επίσης χαμηλώνει το barrier to entry για νέες μηχανές αναζήτησης. Σίγουρα είναι πιο εύκολο για το indexing το HTML5 από το Flash, αλλά επίσης είναι και πιο mashable. Μπορεί ο καθένας να επέμβει στην σελίδα όπως θέλει με το greasemonkey πχ. Να κάνει integrate περιεχόμενο από άλλο site στο δικό του κοκ.

 

Ένα ανοιχτό internet συμφέρει όλους μας. =)

Δημοσ.

Μεταξύ μας τώρα, πως λέγεται αυτός που υποστηρίζει τα open source όταν είναι να πάρει από την κοινότητα αλλά στρέφεται στα proprietary όταν είναι να πουλήσει τα προϊόντα του;

 

Τις διαφημίσεις μια χαρά τις πουλούσαν και μέσω flash, επίσης (βεβαίως-βεβαίως) μια χαρά τις έκοβε και το noscript/adblock plus... :lol:

 

Απλά το θέμα ήταν ότι το flash εξελισσόταν μονομερώς (sic) και αυτή η αναπόφευκτη σύγκριση των χρηστών υποβάθμιζε κάποια προϊόντα. Τώρα τρέχουν και δεν φτάνουν στην adobe και αυτό είναι καλό για όλους μας, ακόμα και για την apple που αν δει ότι το flash θα τρέχει εξίσου γρήγορα και στο mac os, γιατί να μην το υιοθετήσουν μέχρι να γίνει ομαλά η μετάβαση των site από flash σε html5;

 

Άραγε αν αύριο το flash τρέχει το ίδιο γρήγορα και σωστά (σε touchscreen) σε unix/linux/windows, η apple θα παραδεχτεί ότι είναι χρήσιμο για τους χρήστες της, τουλάχιστον μέχρι να καθιερωθεί το html5;

Δημοσ.

Μεταξύ μας τώρα, πως λέγεται αυτός που υποστηρίζει τα open source όταν είναι να πάρει από την κοινότητα αλλά στρέφεται στα proprietary όταν είναι να πουλήσει τα προϊόντα του;

 

Τις διαφημίσεις μια χαρά τις πουλούσαν και μέσω flash, επίσης (βεβαίως-βεβαίως) μια χαρά τις έκοβε και το noscript/adblock plus... :lol:

 

Απλά το θέμα ήταν ότι το flash εξελισσόταν μονομερώς (sic) και αυτή η αναπόφευκτη σύγκριση των χρηστών υποβάθμιζε κάποια προϊόντα. Τώρα τρέχουν και δεν φτάνουν στην adobe και αυτό είναι καλό για όλους μας, ακόμα και για την apple που αν δει ότι το flash θα τρέχει εξίσου γρήγορα και στο mac os, γιατί να μην το υιοθετήσουν μέχρι να γίνει ομαλά η μετάβαση των site από flash σε html5;

 

Άραγε αν αύριο το flash τρέχει το ίδιο γρήγορα και σωστά (σε touchscreen) σε unix/linux/windows, η apple θα παραδεχτεί ότι είναι χρήσιμο για τους χρήστες της, τουλάχιστον μέχρι να καθιερωθεί το html5;

Δημοσ.

Κοίτα, δεν είμαι fan της Apple, αλλά ο Jobs έχει κάποια σωστά points. Με ανοιχτά πρότυπα και ένα ανοιχτό web, αυτός και όλοι μας έχουμε θέση στο που θα πάει. Πότε θα υποστηριχθεί από τις συσκευές του κοκ. Έχει κάποια προβλήματα το σκεπτικό του με το h.264 (που είναι ουσιαστικά κλειστό λόγω πατεντών). Αλλά με οποιοδήποτε plugin σαν το flash, πράγματι είναι στο έλεος της Adobe και της κάθε Adobe για το πότε θα υποστηρίξει την συσκευή του και πόσο καλή θα' ναι η υλοποίηση του flash player στην συσκευή του. Ενώ στο safari έχει άμεσα λόγο.

 

Προσφέρει πίσω στο webkit πχ η Apple και η Google έχει μπει πλήρως στο νόημα του ανοιχτού λογισμικού εδώ και χρόνια.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74ASSzMwZuo[/ame]

 

I'm willing to give jobs the benefit of the doubt αν εξακολουθεί να υποστηρίζει ανοιχτά πρότυπα all the way. Όσο δεν κλειδώνει κόσμο σε apple, είναι στο χέρι κάποιου να τους προτιμήσει ή όχι.

Δημοσ.

Κοίτα, δεν είμαι fan της Apple, αλλά ο Jobs έχει κάποια σωστά points. Με ανοιχτά πρότυπα και ένα ανοιχτό web, αυτός και όλοι μας έχουμε θέση στο που θα πάει. Πότε θα υποστηριχθεί από τις συσκευές του κοκ. Έχει κάποια προβλήματα το σκεπτικό του με το h.264 (που είναι ουσιαστικά κλειστό λόγω πατεντών). Αλλά με οποιοδήποτε plugin σαν το flash, πράγματι είναι στο έλεος της Adobe και της κάθε Adobe για το πότε θα υποστηρίξει την συσκευή του και πόσο καλή θα' ναι η υλοποίηση του flash player στην συσκευή του. Ενώ στο safari έχει άμεσα λόγο.

 

Προσφέρει πίσω στο webkit πχ η Apple και η Google έχει μπει πλήρως στο νόημα του ανοιχτού λογισμικού εδώ και χρόνια.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74ASSzMwZuo[/ame]

 

I'm willing to give jobs the benefit of the doubt αν εξακολουθεί να υποστηρίζει ανοιχτά πρότυπα all the way. Όσο δεν κλειδώνει κόσμο σε apple, είναι στο χέρι κάποιου να τους προτιμήσει ή όχι.

Δημοσ.

Μα αυτό λέω. :-)

 

Walled garden με open source λουλούδια.

 

Όλα έχουν να κάνουν με τις επιλογές και τον περιορισμό τους και τις προφάσεις που προσπαθούν να τις δικαιολογήσουν. :-)

 

Η ζούγκλα είναι όμορφη και γνήσια και σε καμία περίπτωση ταυτόσημη της αναρχίας.

 

Το ότι δεν υπόκειται στις δικές μας αρχές δεν σημαίνει ότι δεν υπάρχουν και εκεί κανόνες. Απλά είναι αυτορυθμιζόμενοι και αυτό δεν μας επιτρέπει να την εκμεταλλευτούμε, για αυτό παίρνουμε ένα κομμάτι της (καταπάτηση), το αποψιλώνουμε, φτιάχνουμε και ένα δυνατό φράκτη για να περιορίσουμε τις όποιες επιρροές και στην συνέχεια επιλέγουμε αυτά που θα βάλουμε σε αυτό το κομμάτι γης.

 

Επειδή όμως γνωρίζουμε πολύ καλά ότι ο εξευγενισμός οδηγεί στην παρακμή, φροντίζουμε να φέρνουμε νέο υλικό ώστε να συνεχίσει να ανθίζει ο κήπος μας αλλά ξεχνάμε ότι αν όλοι καταπατήσουν με τον ίδιο τρόπο την ζούγκλα και χτίσουν κήπους δεν θα είμαστε σε θέση να βρούμε νέο υλικό.

 

Και για όσους δυσκολεύονται να αντιληφθούν την όλη κατάσταση, αντικαταστήστε τους κήπους με ανοικτές και ιδιωτικές παραλίες και θα καταλάβετε για τι πράγμα μιλάμε. :-)

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