telegamesvg Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Tα dvd players εχουν μια κεφαλη που διαβαζει και τα cd κ τα dvd..
Slay Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 An kai ligo palio, nomizo oti den exei ginei post, einai metafrash apo to giaponeziko PC Express Weekly kai einai sygkrish toy beta kit me to teliko hardware toy PS3. http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0722/kaigai199.htm Detailed overview of PS3 development station vs. PS3 console SCEI and PS3 development kit schedule announced Sony Computer Entertainment held their yearly summary meeting for the Playstation, the PlayStation Meeting 2005. In that meeting, new information regarding the Playstation 3 was released. First of all, the scheduled launch of the PS3 in the spring of 2006 was reconfirmed, and immediately before that, a pre-event called the “Playstation Conference” will be held. At first, SCEI used the Cell Evaluation System to do software stack validation. This machine was supposedly used as a debugging machine, used in internal company labs, and it was also provided to a select group of vendors for evaluation. It has a 2.4 GHz Cell processor, 256MB XDR DRAM, and an nVidia graphics board. Next, SCEI developed the much-anticipated “PS3 Evaluation System” for customer evaluation. The machine number is CEB-2030 and the codename is “Cytology.” SCEI has been distributing these machines to software vendors since this spring. The specs of the PS3 Evaluation System will be explained later, but basically it has a 2.4GHz Cell, 512MB of XDR DRAM, and a GeForce 7800 (G70). In December 2005, SCEI is scheduled to release the “PS3 Reference Tool”, which has nearly the same architecture as the actual PS3. It will have a 3.2 GHz Cell, the RSX, 512MB of XDR DRAM, and a BD drive. Currently, it is set to be a 2U rack mount unit, but vertical configurations are being considered. SCEI will continue to provide PS3 Evaluation Systems until November. Currently, 450 units have been sent out, and will continue to increase according to the supply figures shown below, to answer the intensive demand for the machine. August – 200 units Sept – 300 units October – 3000 units November – 3000+ units CELL and XDR DRAM are 75% of PS3ʼs capability The PS3 Evaulation System differs from the final PS3 specs in various ways. First of all, the Cell operating frequency is 2.4 GHz, which is 75% of the production board. In the case of the CPU, it is not uncommon to hold down the clock speed until validation is completed. Of course, while it is not possible for this machine to perform at the PS3 final spec, the knowledge that it is at 75% [and then compensating for it] should be enough to get by. The memory is XDR DRAM, and the Cell chip used is connected to the XDR DRAM by the XDR DRAM interface (XIO). This is also not full-spec. At least in June, the XDR DRAM date transfer rate in the PS3 Evaluation System was held to 2.4 Gbps. The PS3ʼs XDR DRAM data rate will be at 3.2 Gbps, so this is also a 75% capability. The XDR DRAM data rate drop can be seen as in sync with the CPU clock speed drop. What this shows is the possibility that the Cell CPU core and the XDR DRAM interface were developed at the same time. Simultaneous development is easier, and has other advantages. Particularly, in the case of CPU-memory, latency is a very important factor, so simultaneous development has many advantages. Most importantly, the XDR DRAM rate may have been dropped to compensate for the yield rate of the new XDR DRAM. It might be difficult to create 3.2 Gbps XDR DRAM samples at this early stage. If we think about the DRAM cell core clock (Internal Column Frequency), 3.2Gbps XDR DRAM is rather difficult. When XDR DRAM mass production for the PS3 begins, it will be moved to a 90nm process, but for now, it is being built on 100-110nm processes, which is bad for yield rates. Additionally, in the PS3 Evaluation System, RIMM (Rambus memory modules) are used. These modules might eat into the timing margins. The PS3 Evaluation System introduced in this conference has a 512 MB of XDR DRAM. This is twice the 256 MB of the PS3. This increase might be due to the RIMM modules. In June, it was explained that the PS3 Evaluation System was designed to also be able to use RIMM. This large amount of memory is meant for verification [appraisal, testing] purposes. The XDR DRAM interface is configurable, so it has high flexibility. It is an x16 interface, but is also capable being configured as x8 or x4. XDR DRAM has a point-to-point connection with the Cell chip. For example, by changing from x16 to x8, one channel can support connections with twice as many DRAM chips. The RIMM module takes advantage of this property, allowing one channel to support 2 RIMM while maintaining a point-to-point connection. (Trans. note: by context it is clear that “point-to-point” means a direct connection between two ICs, with no intervening chip in between.) On the other hand, the final PS3 design has the XDR DRAM memory directly integrated into the motherboard. Currently, the graphics are connected by PCI-Express x4 In the PS3 Evaluation System, the PC-centric GeForce 7800 GTX (G70) is used as a substitute for the RSX. The RSX and G70 are made from about the same shaders, and the internal shader architecture is predicted to be quite similar. Because of that, as far as graphics are concerned, using the G70 as a base for software development should not create many problems. Shader programs should be able to run as if the two chips were the same. However, the G70 has a lower clock speed than the RSX, and will certainly have some level of performance difference. However, an even greater difference than the internal GPU performance is the interface. In the PS3, the Cell and RSX are connected by a parallel interface developed by Rambus called FlexIO (Redwood), which has a wide 35GB/sec bandwidth (20GB/sec down, 15GB/sec up). However, the G70, which has a PCI Express x16 interface, cannot be directly connected to the Cellʼs FlexIO interface. Therefore, in the PS3 Evaluation System the G70 is collected to the south bridge by PCI Express. In the June PS3 Evaluation System, they were connected by PCI Express x4. The south bridge used by the PS3 Evaluation System is basically the same as the south bridge developed by IBM for the Cell Workstation. Because of that, the chip has peripheral I/O PCI Express x4 meant for server applications. In the final version, PCI Express will disappear from the south bridge, but currently, the G70 is connected by it. For that reason, currently the PCI Express x16 interface in the G70 cannot realize its full potential. According to the spec of the south bridge, Cell has only a 5 GB/sec FlexIO interface to the south bridge. If we assume the same is true for the PS3 Evaluation System, it will have drastically less bandwidth than the actual machine. Furthermore, the G70 is connected to the south bridge by PCI Express x4, which, at 2GB/sec, is even less. If we compare Cell->GPU bandwidth, we see that the PS3 Evaluation System is only 1/20 of the PS3. According to SCEI, in the PS3 Evaluation System, the graphics side has been increased to 512MB of GDDR3 memory. In the actual PS3, there will be 256 MB of GDDR3. The reason for this increase in the video side memory is to allow buffering of data into the graphics side when the bus is idle. However, it will be difficult to use the PS3 Evaluation System to effectively evaluate the wide connection between the Cell and RSX in the PS3. Additionally, the GDDR3 interface of the RSX is 128bits wide, whereas the G70 is 256bits wide, which means if both use x32 512Mbit DRAM chips, the G70 can support twice as much memory. The special characteristic of the PS3 is the connection between Cell and RSX The big special characteristic of PS3 Graphics is the connection between Cell and RSX. The RSX itself has a similar architecture to the G70, but the host interface for the G70 is meant for the PC and is completely different. The G70 uses PCI Express x16 to connect to the chipset as 8GB/sec (4GB/sec one-way), and it cannot directly access main memory. In contrast, the RSX has a 35GB/sec (20GB/sec down, 15GB/sec up) direct connection to the Cell, and can directly render from the main memory on the Cell side. This is a big difference, because it allows a completely different way of using the GPU from PC architectures, SCEI explained. First of all, because the bus is wider, the Cell can perform a great amount of geometry operations, then send the vertex data [to the RSX]. Conversely, the RSX side can easily send data back to the Cell. “The Cell processor can do both pre-processing and post-processing. For example, tessellation, dot filling, etc… Cell can perform physics processing like collision and motion calculations, and transform the vertex array.” said David B. Kirk, Chief Scientist of nVidia. SCEI basically expects higher abstraction levels to be processed by Cell, and the details (like vertexes and pixels) to be processed by the GPU. The is reasonable – for example, in the case where the CPU side handles geometry transformation, collision detection, which is important in games, is not a problem. In the case where the GPU handles geometry transformation, if the data is not sent back to the CPU, clipping issues may occur. In the case of the PS3, the Cell side can perform transformations, and even if the GPU is used for transformation, it is comparatively easy to send the data back to the CPU side. In architectures up to now, either the CPU or the GPU have been the bottleneck. It this is not resolved, we cannot go any further. To face this, in PS3 architecture, if the GPU becomes the bottleneck, it can shift work to the Cell, if the Cell becomes the bottleneck it can send work to the GPU, shifting the workload. For example, according to the software, the Cell side can perform more graphics processing, or, oppositely, or easily make an adjustment to leave the graphics work to the GPU, it was explained. In summary, between the CPU and GPU programmable processors, a flexible balance adjustment can be done. In previous PC architectures, because they were limited by the CPU<->GPU pipe, geometry operations were held to a certain limit, and how rich an environment you can create within that limit became the main technical challenge. In contrast, the PlayStation2-type game consoles created large amounts of polygons, but after that it did not have the expressiveness of PCs. (Trans. note: probably means that PS2 is less capable in applying different effects to polygons than the PC, despite pumping out more polygons.) In the case of the PS3, both are possible, with the flexibility to balance the two. However, in the case of the currently available PS3 Evaluation System, because of restrictions in the architecture, it is not possible to evaluate the balancing [of Cell and RSX]. This is a difficulty and a weakness, but, if we state it differently, software demos on the current systems still do not demonstrate the full potential of PS3. It is possible that the actual PS3 will have performance greater than current demos. Significantly, when in comes to bus bandwidth, the Xbox 360 CPU-GPU connection is 21.6GB/sec, which is much wider than PCs. A wide-bandwidth CPU-GPU connections in not just the characteristic of PS3 in the next-generation consoles. PS2ʼs simple boot-up started with firmware, and it loaded the OS and libraries from the disk. In comparison the PS3 starts from “Haipaabaiza” (Hyper-visor?) firmware. Haipaabaiza is a type of VMM (Virtual Machine Manager) software, which runs not on top but under the OS, providing machine virtualization. Even, when using only the Cell OS for gameplay, Haipaabaiza will always start first, and on top of that runs the pre-defined OS (guest OS). The OS, along with Haipaabaiza, creates a two-layer image. This basic OS layering is the same in the PS3 Evaluation System.
Slay Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 CES is coming... The Consumer Electronics Show kicks off what promises to be a very memorable year for PlayStation fans - and PlayStation.com will be there. If you're a keen gamer, then it's likely that you're already familiar with the Electronic Entertainment Expo, or E3, the huge event held in Los Angeles every May. But it's not the only event to factor in the industry's calendar. With gaming becoming ever more popular, the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) has become more important to companies like Sony Computer Entertainment, the company behind the PlayStation success story. Held in Las Vegas each January, CES is enormous. As the name implies, the event isn't just about games - it's about all the devices that companies hope will excite us all over the next 12 months and beyond. The latest TVs, camcorders, MP3 players, speakers - the latest and greatest examples of all the gadgets you could possibly dream of, basically - vie for the attention of the thousands of attendees. More than ever, CES is increasingly important to gamers. This year, it's arguably more important than ever, because the technology that's set to be showcased there will feature strongly in PLAYSTATION 3. As announced at E3 last May, PS3 will make use of the new Blu-ray disc format, and exploit true high definition displays, all the way up to 1080p. What does this mean to you? Well, with the right equipment you'll soon be able to enjoy games and movies in astoundingly lifelike detail. Rest assured, we'll have plenty more information on this in the coming months. We'll also be at CES when the show kicks off on the 4th January, and will be reporting back with all the news that matters to PlayStation gamers - so make sure you keep an eye on PlayStation.com bright and early in the New Year. http://uk.playstation.com/news/newsStory.jhtml;jsessionid=AVFZ413CASOPWCQSBLWSMFQ?storyId=107244_en_GB_NEWS&linktype=NT3
m00nlight Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 @m00nlightPera apo to Spring 2006 den yparxei kati poio sygkekrimeno' date=' isos to poyn sthn press conference poy exoyn sthn CES stis 4 genarh, h Sony exei fetos sthn CES to megalytero periptero ap'oloys, kai oi fhmes lene oti kai tha anakoinosoyn kai tha deixoyn nea pragmata, ligh yponh liges meres akoma.[/quote'] OK Thanks, can't wait!
Exoskeletor Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 slay friend ta paixnidia tou ps2 kai tou psx eipame ta pezei?
Slay Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 slay friend ta paixnidia tou ps2 kai tou psx eipame ta pezei? koita einai sigoyro oti kapoia den tha ta paizei, alla thn syntriptikh toys pleiopshfia nai tha ta paizei.
KenZone Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 koita einai sigoyro oti kapoia den tha ta paizei, alla thn syntriptikh toys pleiopshfia nai tha ta paizei. 3ereis giati oxi ola mipws ??
Slay Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 3ereis giati oxi ola mipws ?? giati to backwards compatibility einai syndyasmos software emulation, kai hardware mesa sto ps3, opos htan kai me to PS2, e kai poly apla ayto den doyleyei panta, edo bghke to silver slim kai den epaize 5 paixnidia toy ps2, asymbatothtes panta yparxoyn, to eytyxes einai oti periorizontai se mikro pososto.
KenZone Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 ok .. alla uparxei kanena paixnidi tou psone pou na min paizei sto ps2 ?? dn exw sunadisei kanena gia auto rwtaw ..
nestorn Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Πολύ ωραίο το αρθράκι που ξετρύπωσες Slay και πολύ ενδιαφέρον, ενώ είναι φως φανάρι οτι οι άνθρωποι είναι γνώστες....και δεν λένε αερολογίες... [b']Detailed overview of PS3 development station vs. PS3 console[/b] Μερικά σχόλια.... The RSX and G70 are made from about the same shaders, and the internal shader architecture is predicted to be quite similar[/b']. Because of that, as far as graphics are concerned, using the G70 as a base for software development should not create many problems. Shader programs should be able to run as if the two chips were the same... Μένει να δούμε πόσο "similar" θα είναι ο RSX με την G70...στο internet σίγουρα θα έχεις δεί οτι γίνονται συζητήσεις επι συζητήσεων πάνω σε αυτό. This is a big difference, because it allows a completely different way of using the GPU from PC architectures, SCEI explained. First of all, because the bus is wider, the Cell can perform a great amount of geometry operations, then send the vertex data [to the RSX']. Conversely, the RSX side can easily send data back to the Cell.... Aυτό θα είναι το μεγάλο ατού της τεχνολογίας του PS3, αυτός είναι και ο λόγος που η Sony έδωσε τόσο χρήμα για την ανάπτυξη του FlexIO και του Cell. Ένας τόσο ισχυρός σε floating point υπολογισμούς επεξεργαστής ήταν απαραίτητος για τη χρήση αυτή... Επίσης πιστεύω πως η σύγκριση στα τεχνικά χαρακτηριστικά του hardware κομμάτι κομμάτι (π.χ. cpu με cpu και gpu με gpu) δεν έχει και πολύ νόημα για το PS3 (άσχετα αν έχει ακόμα και έτσι μεγάλο πλεονέκτημα σε σχέση με την υπάρχουσα τεχνολογία) καθώς η συνεργασία cpu και gpu στο PS3 αλλάζει τελείως τα δεδομένα όταν μιλάμε για γραφικά εννοείται... In contrast, the PlayStation2-type game consoles created large amounts of polygons, but after that it did not have the expressiveness of PCs. (Trans. note: probably means that PS2 is less capable in applying different effects to polygons than the PC, despite pumping out more polygons.)... Ενδιαφέρουσα παραδοχή απο τη Sony...έγω πάντως πάντα πίστευα πως αν κάποιος θέλει πολύγωνα, θα τα βρεί στις κονσόλες ενώ αν θέλει textures θα τα βρεί στα PC και μάλλον επαληθεύομαι Και οι δύο τρόποι είναι καλοί για να αποτυπώσεις λεπτομέρεια σε έναν virtual world... Significantly, when in comes to bus bandwidth, the Xbox 360 CPU-GPU connection is 21.6GB/sec, which is much wider than PCs. A wide-bandwidth CPU-GPU connections in not just the characteristic of PS3 in the next-generation consoles. Το μειονέκτημα του 360 κατα τη γνώμη μου δεν είναι μόνο το μικρότερο bandwidth μεταξύ cpu και gpu σε σχέση με το PS3 αλλα και ο λιγότερο ισχυρός επεξεργαστής του σε floating point πράξεις...Πιστεύω οι 3 PPE πυρήνες ήταν ότι καλύτερο απο "συμβατική" τεχνολογία μπορούσε να βάλει η M$, όμως δεν φθάνει με τίποτα την custom αρχιτεκτονική του Cell στην συγκεκριμένη χρήση
nestorn Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 giati to backwards compatibility einai syndyasmos software emulation, kai hardware mesa sto ps3, opos htan kai me to PS2, e kai poly apla ayto den doyleyei panta... Νομίζω οτι το PS2 δεν κάνει software emulation στο PS1 αλλά έχει έναν R3000 επεξεργαστή απο PS1 (I/O Processor) και 2 Μb RAM για να κάνει emulation στο PS1. Έτσι στην ουσία γίνεται hardware emulation και σε μικρό βαθμό μέσω software. Αυτό εξηγεί και την μεγάλη συμβατότητα του PS2 με τα games του PS1... Στο PS3 δεν νομίζω οτι έχει ανακοινωθεί κάτι αντίστοιχο....
Slay Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 ok .. alla uparxei kanena paixnidi tou psone pou na min paizei sto ps2 ?? dn exw sunadisei kanena gia auto rwtaw .. Nai yparxoyn arketa, alla kai 100-150 na einai ayta (poy fenetai megalos arithmos) einai molis to 1,5-2% ths bibliothikhs toy PS1, giayto kai den exeis synanthsei kanena. @nestorn To ps2 exei ena kommati toy PS1 poy einai meros toy southbridge, alla to ypoloipo ginetai emulate apo to EE, kai nai o kutaragi se synenteyxh toy exei pei oti to idio tha kanoyn kai sto ps3, ena kommati hardware apo to ps2, kai to ypoloipo software emulation ston Cell.
Slay Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Πολύ ωραίο το αρθράκι που ξετρύπωσες Slay και πολύ ενδιαφέρον' date=' ενώ είναιφως φανάρι οτι οι άνθρωποι είναι γνώστες....και δεν λένε αερολογίες...[/quote'] O Hiroshige Goto (syggrafeas toy arthroy) exei ontos fhmh poly kaloy gnosth ton leptomereion toy hardware. Επίσης πιστεύω πως η σύγκριση στα τεχνικά χαρακτηριστικά του hardwareκομμάτι κομμάτι (π.χ. cpu με cpu και gpu με gpu) δεν έχει και πολύ νόημα για το PS3 (άσχετα αν έχει ακόμα και έτσι μεγάλο πλεονέκτημα σε σχέση με την υπάρχουσα τεχνολογία) καθώς η συνεργασία cpu και gpu στο PS3 αλλάζει τελείως τα δεδομένα όταν μιλάμε για γραφικά εννοείται... Symfono' date=' eidika gia ta physics simulations einai kataplhktikh arxitektonikh, exeis ton Cell na ypologizei to physics, kanei kai vertex transformation kai ta stelnei meta sthn GPU na ta perilabei me toys shaders :grin: Το μειονέκτημα του 360 κατα τη γνώμη μου δεν είναι μόνο το μικρότερο bandwidth μεταξύ cpu και gpu σε σχέση με το PS3 αλλα και ο λιγότερο ισχυρός επεξεργαστής του σε floating point πράξεις...Πιστεύω οι 3 PPE πυρήνες ήταν ότι καλύτερο απο "συμβατική" τεχνολογία μπορούσε να βάλει η M$, όμως δεν φθάνει με τίποτα την custom αρχιτεκτονική του Cell στην συγκεκριμένη χρήση Ego pisteyo oti megalytero problhma einai to bandwidth sthn sygkekrimenh periptosh, sigoyra o Cell einai kai poio grhgoros kai poio efficient gia vector proccecing, alla to mega meionekthma einai to bandwidth, sto ps3 exeis ton Cell na exei 25,6gb/sec me thn XDR, thn RSX na exei 22,2Gb/sec me thn GDDR3, kai metaxy toys (Cell<->RSX) alla 35gb/sec, eno sto 360 exeis 22,2gb/sec bandwidth me thn mnhmh to opoio moirazontai kai h CPU kai h GPU, kai apo to idio kanali ginetai kai h opoia antalagh data metaxy toys, den einai tyxaio poy phgan sthn lysh ths e-dram gia to Xenos, oxi giati thelan na exoyn periseia bandwidth, alla giati sthn oysia me thn arxitektonikh poy sxediasan den toys eftane to bandwidth gia HD analyseis.
nestorn Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 ... eno sto 360 exeis 22,2gb/sec bandwidth me thn mnhmh to opoio moirazontai kai h CPU kai h GPU, kai apo to idio kanali ginetai kai h opoia antalagh data metaxy toys Σίγουρα το bandwidth ή μάλλον η συνδεσμολογία μεταξύ των cpu, gpu και RAM στο 360 δεν φαίνεται να σχεδιάστηκε τόσο πολύ για μοίρασμα του φορτίου μεταξύ cpu και gpu, αλλά μάλλον με την κλασική έννοια που συναντάμε στα PCs (με πιο γρήγορα εξαρτήματα βέβαια) όπου το κάθε τμήμα έχει πιο συγκεκριμένες εργασίες ...Επίσης η unified ram δεν μπορώ ακόμα να καταλάβω ποιο πλεονέκτημα έχει τουλάχιστον σε σχέση με την αρχιτεκτονική του PS3 ή ακόμα και του PS2 όπου η gpu δεν έχει πρόσβαση μόνο στη vRAM. Kαι αν αυτό δεν φάνηκε τόσο στο xbox1 (λόγω 64Μb και 6.4 GB/s) στο 360 μαλλον είναι περιοριστικός παράγοντας λόγω του περιορισμένου bandwidth ..den einai tyxaio poy phgan sthn lysh ths e-dram gia to Xenos, oxi giati thelan na exoyn periseia bandwidth, alla giati sthn oysia me thn arxitektonikh poy sxediasan den toys eftane to bandwidth gia HD analyseis... Αν ισχύει κάτι τέτοιο (αν και μου φαίνεται υπερβολικά χαζό απο μέρους τους) τότε πρεπει να πέσουν κεφάλια στην M$.... ...Λές γι αυτό να εμφανίζονται pixelated κάποια games του 360 ενώ κανονικά θα έπρεπε να έχουν όλα "performance free anti-alaising"???
telegamesvg Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Δημοσ. 28 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 Ποια game παρουσιαζονται pixelated ???? και ποια η σχεση του anti-alaising με το "pixelated" ???
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