The Official PS3 topic

[BlizardBill]

Μαλιστα,δηλαδη το PS3 που θα εχει Cell CPU,NVIDIA GPU,τρελες μνημες,και αλλα γνωστα,θα κανει πιο λιγο απο 1000$ οπου τοσο εχει το STANDALONE PLAYER/RECORDER της Samsung?

Αυτό το λέει ΟΛΟΣ ο κόσμος, ακόμα και η υπερβολική ανάλυση της M.L. οπότε δεν είναι καθόλου δύσκολο να το πιστέψεις.

 

Και μάλιστα σε περιμένει πολύ "ευχάριστη" έκπληξη για την μαγκιά που έκανε η sony με το PS3 ,αν καταλάβεις την λογική που λέει ότι εφόσον η samsung βγάζει σε λιανική προς 500$ ένα Writer, ο ανάλογος players μαζικής παραγωγής της Sony θα της κοστίζει πολύ σύντομα πολύ-πολύ πιο φτηνά.

[Slay]

petaei o gaidaros?petaei..auto na lete dw..

gia koita kai ti leei enas developer sto antistoixo thread toy beyond3d, gia na mhn lete oti ta bgazoyme kai apo to myalo mas dhladh.

 

Most of this is pretty standard for a 3rd party developer with a major publisher. In fact it's unlikely that a dev would get a deal like this without already having a game design.

 

How good the deal is depends on the fine print in the contract and on the actual numbers, how much for initial development, what the royalty split is.

 

I'd be wary of signing any contract that contained clause 2, since it's a fuck you clause, although sometimes contracts with broad clauses can actually be a good thing, depends on how specific the rest of the contract is.

 

I'd also push to have the right to buy back the rights if Sony chose to back out, this would likely be at the cost of returning to Sony its investment, most contracts would require this anyway in the case of a breach.

 

But no external dev these days gets to keep their IP, unless their IP is partially their name like ID.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28559&page=2

[xrest]

ma slay egw den mpainw stin kontra poso tha kanei to ps3,poso kostizei i kataskeuei tou,mpla mpla mpla,egw sxoliazw,k panta mou kane entipwsei,oti de dexesai tpt apo allous,k mono oti briskeis pisteueis oti nai to swsto..mono auto paratirw.tha sxoliasw to sistima otan tpt apo ooooooola auta den thanai fimes.giauto to petaei o gaidaros..

[Daredevil]

Επειδή θα με τρελάνετε ορισμένοι εδώ, εξήγησε μου σε παρακαλώ από που και ως που είναι αυθαίρετη η ανάλυση, και τι δεν σου άρεσε......

me kalypse o predator to 8ema einai ti den katalabaineis ec kai oxi egw, egw den egrapsa pou8ena oti 8ewrw thn analysh ths typisas isa isa egrapsa ayto

symfwnw apolyta giati se kanou na pisteyeis oti 8a dwseis 500eyrw gia kati pou 8a kanei 900 sthn ousia. kai fysika den stoixizoun tosa oute to ena oute to allo ....

opote coolare ligo

 

Και εμένα με πεθαίνει όταν προσπαθείς να εξηγήσεις κάτι σε κάποιον, και αντί αν δώσει προσοχή ή να κάνει κάποια ερώτηση, πετάει μια ατάκα-εξυπνάδα και νομίζει ότι είπε κάτι αξιόλογο.

Αν διαφωνείς , εξήγησε γιατί ακριβώς σε "πεθαίνει" όταν κάποιος παίρνει πίσω από τα κέρδη σου τα λεφτά που σου έδωσε για να φτιάξεις κάτι.

giati me thn idia logikh prepei na eyxaristw ton ergodoth mou pou mou kanei thn timh na ton kanw plousio trwgwntas psixoula opws kai thn trapeza pou mou dinei 0.3% ton xrono epitokio pou exei ta lefta mou kai paizei enw px an ta xa egw sto ntoulapi den 8a to perna gi ayto....... twra an 8es ki allh anaysh den mporw na se boh8hsw

 

Σίγουρα δεν θα τους βγει φτηνότερα ... γιατί εκεί δεν τους δίνει κανείς χρήματα , και αν δεν πάνε καλά τη ζημιά θα την πληρώσουν όλη από την τσέπη τους .

opws px h ea pou exei falhrhsei e? otan kaneis mia bussiness file mou san ki ayth ta relations einai dynamic, an paei kala to paixnidi pou 8a bgaleis 8a sthrixtei panw kai se ayto h konsola, den mporeis na ta 8eleis ola opw h k sony h opaodhpote allh etairia ferete etsi se dev. twra fysikadikaiwma ths na kanei oti 8elei alla otan milate gia monopwleio kai monopwleiakes taktikes kalon 8a htan na blepete pera apo thn myth sas....

[Slay]

den mporeis na ta 8eleis ola opw h k sony h opaodhpote allh etairia ferete etsi se dev. twra fysikadikaiwma ths na kanei oti 8elei alla otan milate gia monopwleio kai monopwleiakes taktikes kalon 8a htan na blepete pera apo thn myth sas....

Most of this is pretty standard for a 3rd party developer with a major publisher. In fact it's unlikely that a dev would get a deal like this without already having a game design.

no external dev these days gets to keep their IP.

 

Katalabaineis loipon poy einai h enstash? kathgoyroyn oi koreates thn sony gia aytes tis apanthropes kai miares syfmonies poy thelei na toys balei na ypograpsoyn, otan sthn oysia ayto poy kanei h sony to kanoyn OLOI kai poy malista h sony toys dinei lefta na xekinhsoyn xoris na exei dei kan game se exelixh.

[telegamesvg]

Μπραβο Sony ......yupiiiii ) )

[Daredevil]

mhpws exeis kapoio link me ta deals twn dev na melethsw? dioti to na mou deixneis ena post se ena forum enws dev pou leei oti panw katw oi pio polloi kanoun to idio einai ligo mpakalistiko (ase pou mporei na nai kai didimos adelfos sou to alter ego sou klp klp )

[Slay]

mhpws exeis kapoio link me ta deals twn dev na melethsw? dioti to na mou deixneis ena post se ena forum enws dev pou leei oti panw katw oi pio polloi kanoun to idio einai ligo mpakalistiko

e den nomizo oti bgazoyn ta symbolaia toys sto web, merh san to beyond3d einai oi monadikes phges gia tetoioy eidoys plhrofories

 

(ase pou mporei na nai kai didimos adelfos sou to alter ego sou klp klp )

Mpaaaa o ERP einai h third party, h doyleyei gia dev poy bgazei gia 360, thymamai paliotera poy sxoliaze to development se 360, epishs o Vysez sthn prohgoymenh selida leei mia apo ta idia, third party kai aytos, epishs gia na dieykolyno sto poioys na prosexeis poio poly ti lene an theliseis na kaneis browse to beyond3d, third party einai kai o fafalada, kai gia thn sony grafoyn kodika oi DeanA, DeanoC kai nAo.

[BlizardBill]

me kalypse o predator to 8ema einai ti den katalabaineis ec kai oxi egw.

Βρε παιδί μου, αν είχες διαβάσει αυτά που είπα πριν διαφωνήσεις , πες μου που ακριβώς είδες κάτι περίεργο ή λάθος για να μου φύγει η περιέργεια.

 

Και ο predator μπορεί να βλέπει πόσο φοβερά είναι κάποια χαρακτηρίστηκα του ps3, και να του φαίνεται πως θα θα έπρεπε να κοστίζει 1500$ κανονικά, αλλά εμεις μιλάμε αναλυτηκά και με στοιχεία εδώ για να καταλάβεις ότι έχει την δυνατότητα να πουλιέται και σε φοβερή τιμή , σε σχέση με το xbox360.

 

Είναι μάγκες οι άνθρωποι , γιαυτό και είναι πρώτοι με τόση διαφορά.

 

giati me thn idia logikh prepei na eyxaristw ton ergodoth mou pou mou kanei thn timh na ton kanw plousio trwgwntas psixoula

Έτσι είναι όμως φίλε… οι εργοδότες πάντα παίρνουν τα λεφτά που σου δίνουν πίσω από το προιόν, εκτός αν κάτι πάει στραβά ,η δε τράπεζα τα παίρνει ακόμα και τότε.

Η Microsoft και η Nintendo δεν εξαιρούνται ... όλοι παίρνουν χρήματα από τα έσοδα των παιχνιδιών, χωρίς να δώσουν μάλιστα ούτε cent όπως κάνει τώρα η Sony ,στους παραγωγούς που τα φτιάχνουν.

[Slay]

Extra manufacturers for PS3?

 

According to a Taiwanese newspaper, using an unknown source, it has been reported that Asus and Foxxconn in Taiwan may help Sony make Playstation 3 units later this year.

 

Although this report goes against what Sony has been doing in recent times with the manufacturing of the PS2 (outsourcing to Chinese manufacturers), the need for more manufacturers would be high, to be able to meet demands and not suffer the same delays the X360 has been suffering.

 

http://ps3.qj.net/Extra-manufacturers-for-PS3-/pg/49/aid/2983

[Slay]

PS3 Falls into 2008? Dr. Major Nelson Reveals All

 

Concrete details on Sony's alleged next gen system, the PS3, have finally come to light. In an exclusive interview with Game Intelligence magaize, Dr. Major Nelson broke NDAs to shed new light on the PS3. "The PS3 does not exist right now. There is no actual system - just a bug infested concept," Dr. Nelson revealed. His comments support the recent murmurs about Sony's console. Sony is hoping the PS3 can raise their profits, which fell 50% last quarter.

 

Dr. Nelson went on the reveal many more things, including the price of the PS3. Many reports have suggested that the PS3 will cost more than a NASA spaceship, but Dr. Nelson's comments were more dramatic. "Let's just say if ten people actually bought a PS3 - a doubtful event in its own right - the total retail would eliminate the US's trade deficit with China."

 

Speaking about the PS3's famed 'Cell' processor, Dr. Nelson said "the problem with the Cell is that its too complex. All the developers I have talked to have said it might take 3 years for them to find out how to get their games to run at 10fps. It's a rubex cube of needles and haystacks." When asked for a responce to Dr. Nelson's charges, Sony spokesman and GAF founder Sonny Cowboy said "I think this is just another example of the hate Microsoft breeds. They have no plan, and all they do is critisize. Bin Laden uses Windows."

 

Sony has maintained that the PS3 will come out in the Spring of 2006, but Dr. Nelson denied this. "In all truthfullness, the PS3 might slip into the holiday season of 2008. Sony can't get anything together. They haven't even shown any games. Even stuff like MGS4 is not really coming out. In reality that was just an early scene from Mission Impossible 4."

 

http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=86975&page=5

 

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Slay]

Analyzing the Analysts: Merrill Lynch's Flawed Methodology

When analysis runs amok.

By Carl Bender - February 21, 2006

 

 

Merrill Lynch and myself have something in common: neither of us knows what the components inside the Playstation 3 will ultimately cost Sony to produce. That's probably where the similarities end however.

 

Merrill Lynch recently ventured a guess as to what these figures will be, and I feel their analysis so egregious as to demand some form of response. This article is not to venture an alternate guess to the figures presented per se, but rather to indicate the ways in which analysts in the video game industry come at their jobs half-assed and ill-prepared in terms of what's necessary to make an informed prediction. In this article, I will focus on Merrill's professionalism and methodology.

 

For those who have not yet read the analysis, it is available for viewing here: http://rsch1.ml.com/9093/24013/ds/276873_0.PDF

 

To begin, let us look at the professionalism aspect. If this were a report written up for a college class, there would be red ink all over it, and I have no doubt the 'college project' mentality was exactly the one behind this product. It contains a lack of consistency throughout in the manner in which the upcoming Playstation is referenced; Playstation 3, PlayStation 3, PS 3, and PS III all being used interchangeably to describe the system. PS III?

 

The report also touts repeatedly a $900 manufacturing figure in terms of costs, but on the actual bill of materials chart, the total comes out to $800. These mistakes are minor, but their ease of correction is what makes them all the more pathetic. For a report representing a major investment house, at the very minimum it shows off very poor editing skills and quality control. Professionalism aside though, by far the points I take most issue with are the weak technical arguments made.

 

Merrill asserts:

 

"...Sony's decision to implement an ambitious new processor architecture...has resulted in a processor we think will cost Sony at least $230 per unit initially. ...The die, at 235 square millimeters initially, is large, and Sony plans to manufacture it on a leading-edge 90nm process. Add to that the fact that the die is mostly logic, not memory arrays that can be easily repaired, and you've got a part that looks like it will be difficult and expensive to manufacture..."

 

Let's look at what we know.

 

In 1999 Sony began mass production of the Playstation 2's EmotionEngine processor, on an - at the time - cutting edge 250nm fabrication process utilizing 200mm wafers. The die size of the chips produced was 240mm^2; larger than that of the Cell chip. Yields weren't all that great, and the chip was expensive.

 

In sharp contrast to that, Sony has taken several precautions this time around to make sure that the Cell chips going inside of PS3 control costs in ways that the EmotionEngine simply did not. Whereas Merrill asserts that today's process is a 'leading-edge' 90nm process, the fact is that 90nm SOI has been around for a while now, and Kutaragi has made specific past references to his use of 90nm for launch precisely because it is the conservative choice. The IBM-developed SOI process used for Cell production has been used for considerable time in IBM's Power chips as well as AMD's line of Athlon 64/Opteron processors, and Cell itself has been in production for over a year now on that same process. Indeed, IBM's confidence in Cell yields recently prompted Senior Vice President of IBMʼs Systems & Technology Group to announce to a press conference a couple of weeks ago that "yield learning" with Cell has progressed "faster than on any chip weʼve done" to date.

 

And as if these differences alone weren't advantage enough over the EmotionEngine situation back with Playstation 2, consider also that not only is Cell being produced on larger 300mm silicon wafers (again, better yields), but due to Kutaragi's decision to use Cell chips with only seven of the eight SPE's active, Sony is able to utilize a larger number of the Cell processors produced per wafer; some of which would otherwise have been rendered unsuitable due to die defects. In truth, as long as the PPE core is functional, I'm sure that *all* Cell chips are being saved to be put to use in future consumer electronics devices.

 

RSX should itself also come out to be less expensive than the original GraphicsSynthesizer was to fab. Even if RSX were to be 'something more' than an NVidia G70 chip shrunk down to 90nm, it would have to be something pretty extraordinary to compete with the mammoth 279mm^2 chip that comprised the original PS2's graphics processor. Add to this that Kutaragi has indicated RSX will feature 'redundancy' similar to Cell - likely in the form of a disabled pixel quad - and you have a chip whose yields should blow those of the original Playstation 2's GS chip out of the water.

 

For those interested, RSX will be fabbed on Sony's mature 90nm CMOS 4 process, presently used for the slimline Playstation 2's EE+GS@ 90nm chip and production of the primary PSP processors.

 

Now let's shift gears away from Cell and RSX for a moment, and look again at a particular quote.

 

"Add to that the fact that the die is mostly logic, not memory arrays that can be easily repaired, and you've got a part that looks like it will be difficult and expensive to manufacture."

 

I have to inform the readers that don't know, that it is simply impossible to repair a microprocessor - it simply cannot be done. By 'memory arrays' Merrill is clearly refering (obtusely) to the cache of the PPE core, and/or the local memory of the SPE's. Indeed cache does incorporate a level of defect tolerance, but by no means are such defects able to be repaired, and the fact that the Merrill uses such language in their report indicates to me an analyst staff that on one level or another is ignorant of processor design. Of course, their analysis of the other difficulties facing Cell was enough to expose their lack of thouroughness in and of itself, but this quote referencing the repair of memory arrays comes off as particularly egregious.

 

Time to start wrapping things up - Blu-ray.

 

I think a lot of us can reflect and venture a guess that Blu-ray will likely be the single largest expense for the PS3 at the start of its life. At present there are very few makers of the actual components themselves; Sony and Nichia for the laser diodes, Philips for the optical pickup unit. But are we to believe a cost of $320 per drive for a read-only unit? I'm not sure that I would.

 

In April Samsung is set to introduce the SH-B022, a PC Blu-ray burner drive with a present estimated retail price of $500. It should be mentioned that in fact this unit has already made its way into reviewers hands, who have successfully tested the unit with Nero and burned a BD disc with it. Now, if I am aware of a consumer retail BD-writer coming on the market for $500 - knowing first generation technology like this will carry a significant markup on the retail end - can one not envision that a read-only drive sourced internally by one of the sole diode producers should likely cost less than the $320 estimate? I believe it stands to reason.

 

Eighty dollars worth of IO components? I'd be interested to see how they break down those numbers.

 

The fact is that the analysis is poorly researched, poorly written, and is overly bold in it's assertions. Merrill Lynch's estimates and methodology have been bad in the past - as is ironically typical of most game industry analysts - but this report is simply over the top in the way it's reverberated across the Internet.

 

This is not to say of course that I have numbers to put forth in place of these... but I think in the end that in itself is the point. I don't know the numbers, so I'm not writing about them. Merrill also doesn't know the numbers, uses flawed methodologies and logic to reach numbers, and then publishes analyst reports based on those numbers.

 

So here I am writing about that instead.

 

http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=4&m_articles_articleid=368&PHPSESSID=140c887d37bdadc7646769e036d6bc16

[Slay]

Merrill Lynch guesses at $800 PlayStation 3 cost

 

The same report from analysts at Merrill Lynch that predicted that the PS3 could be delayed by over six months has also suggested that the components used to build each console could cost Sony over $800.

 

Presenting a list of materials needed for each console, Merrill Lynch analyst Joe Osha pins the highest costs on the Blu-Ray drive used by the system, at $350, and the Cell processor, at $230.

 

Other components including the NVIDIA RSX chip ($70) and the system's memory ($50) stack up with smaller costs such as Bluetooth and Wi-Fi chips to bring the total to $800 (although Osha's report miscalculates this figure as $900).

 

Although Osha predicts that the bill of materials cost will fall to $320 within three years, his headline figure is stark - and the report describes the situation in harsh terms, stating bluntly that "it's now clear that the box is prohibitively expensive to make."

 

However, it should be borne in mind that Osha makes no particular claim to have insider knowledge of Sony's manufacturing or materials costs for the console - and while he explains his reasoning for some of the price tags he attaches to materials, others remain entirely inexplicable.

 

The incredibly high cost of the Blu-Ray drive, for example, is an anomaly that can perhaps be explained by the widespread confusion over the difference between a simple Blu-Ray data drive, a technology which is more complex than existing DVD drives but not enormously so, and a home Blu-Ray player or recorder, which must include a variety of expensive video and audio processing hardware which the PS3 already has on-board as part of its core functionality.

 

Although it remains a possibility that Blu-Ray drives will be expensive to manufacture, hard evidence of this has yet to emerge - and there is widespread scepticism over the incredibly high price points being attached to the technology by many analysts, especially since the PS3 is expected to have a Read-only Blu-Ray drive, and most other Blu-Ray devices for which even tentative price points have been mentioned are more expensive Read-Write devices.

 

The other component which Osha expects to be incredibly expensive is Cell, with the price for the chip placed at $230 - a factor, he says, of the fact that the die size of the chip is large, and mostly made up of logic circuits rather than the easier to repair memory circuits.

 

However, his assertion that the chip will be difficult and hence expensive to manufacture is thrown into doubt by comments made by IBM senior vice president William Zeittler earlier this month, when he said that the firm is succeeding in ramping up yields of Cell "faster than on any chip we've done."

 

In other words, while Merrill Lynch's report has not only impacted Sony's share price today, but has also kicked off a storm in the mainstream media about the status of PS3, some of its basic assumptions appear to be founded on shaky ground - and like all analyst reports dealing with the technical aspects of console manufacture or game development, it deserves to be viewed with a healthy dose of scepticism.

While Sony has made a habit of announcing key details of its strategy at press conferences in Tokyo, the next planned public discussion of the firm's plans will take place at the Game Developers' Conference in San Jose in late March, where the company's worldwide studios boss Phil Harrison will take the stage to deliver a keynote speech.

 

http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=14836

[Shinta]

Anarotieme,ti skata kanoun oi 360 funs se auto to topic?Toso mlkia einai to 360 pou den exoun ti na kanoun kai erontai edo kai flamearoun?Ok, tha mou peite sizitisi ginete.DEN ginete sizitisi,mlkies petane!Arketa anextika 4 mines tora pou parakoloutho to topic,kathe kavlomeno M$akia na min einai sto topic tou alla na erxete edo na mou prizei.Oso gia sizitisi,tha itan dekti,alla proipothetei kapoia illikia kai kapoio pneumatiko epipedo pou an krino apo ta post,den iparxei.

 

Tora vevaia,an mas pisoun oti to PS3 den aksizei kai paroume oloi 360 Isos,isos leo, pane kialloi Devs stin M$ kai doume kana kalo paixnidi sto 360.

 

Kai paratheto ta links gia ta xamena paidia Xbox 360 Ειδήσεις kai XBOX360 Revolution Topic {Απορίες, Εντυπώσεις, Προβλήματα}

[Predatorkill]

Shinta,κανουν ακριβως οτι κανουν οι PS fans στα topic που ειπες απο πανω!